AM(Almost)A about the auto industry

"yamahog" (yamahog) 02/28/2015 at 18:30 • Filed to: AMA

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As many of you know, my degree is in aerospace engineering and after a brief stint in defense, I came to Michigan to work in the auto industry. And, like a cruel jerk, I've been frequently complaining to my similarly-employed SO about how ignorant the average auto enthusiasts/journalists are about how the auto industry works. I frequently hear things like: "BUT WHY CAN'T THEY JUST [insert enthusiast request here]??" Short answer: nothing's just that simple, and someone has probably already had the same idea as you, internet commenter, and there's more likely than not a legal, business, or engineering reason why it can't be done.

But it's not your fault , auto enthusiasts. We can't be expected to know everything about a process most of us will never experience firsthand, and some of this stuff can be counterintuitive. So I'd like to take some time in between marathoning House of Cards to do my best to answer the burning questions you have about engineering, how things work, how things get made, etc. I'm an engineer and most of my experience has been with product development of exterior and aerodynamic commodities, but I am also very familiar with marketing, benchmarking, prototyping, purchasing, validation, various decision-making processes, and the general climate of the industry. I know there are other Oppos with experience in related areas, too, and you're more than welcome to join in this thread.

Disclaimer: I will not talk about where or what I am currently working on, or even specifics about past projects. Nor will I answer potentially doxxing questions. My opinions are my own and do not represent any of the companies I have worked at or currently work for.

Have a Days of Thunder poster for your time:

garagemonkee > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 18:34

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Why are so many components that are vital to long-term reliability made out of plastic?

E. Julius > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 18:34

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I know you said you won't comment on any specifics, but could you give us a better idea of the type of automotive stuff you work on? You said "product development of exterior… commodities", so do you design door handles or tail lights or what?

yamahog > garagemonkee 02/28/2015 at 18:35

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Depends on the component and type of plastic. Anything specific in mind?

Sweet Trav > garagemonkee 02/28/2015 at 18:36

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in a word? Cost.

yamahog > E. Julius 02/28/2015 at 18:38

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Let's just say I'm very familiar with expensive stuff, impact testing, airflow concerns, and working with the design studio.

yamahog > Sweet Trav 02/28/2015 at 18:40

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Also weight, rust, etc.

garagemonkee > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 18:40

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VW water pump impellers. VW water pump housings.

I've never personally had an impeller failure, but I'm about to have my second pump replaced because the housing has cracked.

Historically, things like timing chain guides?

Jonathan Harper > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 18:40

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What is the biggest misconception that most enthusiasts/journos have beyond the "CAN'T THEY JUST" thing. What are the things that people not in the industry don't get?

E. Julius > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 18:42

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Do you work mostly with OEMs or suppliers?

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 18:42

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Wing mirrors, definitely, wing mirrors.

yamahog > garagemonkee 02/28/2015 at 18:43

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LolGermans. Most likely cost/weight since the alternative would be cast metal.

jariten1781 > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 18:44

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Currious how much, in general (I'm sure it widely varies), design rights of subsystems belong to subtier suppliers as opposed to the end manufacturer.

Mostly I haven't decided if the NHTSA going after Takata directly is kosher. In my industry the regulators don't give a shit about subtiers, it's the responsibility of the end manufacturer to keep them in line. It just seems like it'd be a quagmire if manufacturers can pass the buck.

Sweet Trav > garagemonkee 02/28/2015 at 18:51

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In the olden days, housings and impellers were made from cast material. Unfortunately cast metal can be expensive, along with the Machining costs and weight, essentially in a controlled environment the material held up just fine, unfortunately the real world was less kind.

It comes down to cost.

And as for the timing chain guides, they have to be plastic, what other material would function the same? Metal would wear and particulate would damage engine internals. Sometimes plastic is the best material for the job. For instance one of our products, a plastic component can actually take more RPMs and more heat.

yamahog > Jonathan Harper 02/28/2015 at 18:52

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Brb, digging thru my comment history~

But journos? Easily the product development timelines and lifecycles. If you see what you think is a powertrain mule for car X, it's not gonna be "out later that year." Also, there are multiple prototype phases. Also also, benchmarking. Everyone copies everyone for a reason.

Also, this quote from Chris Harris:

"Every CFO on the planet will now laugh at my naiveté, but would it really be impossible for a company like BMW to make 500,000 cars a year, cars it wanted to produce and which squared with the brand image it has carefully cultivated for decades, and still make good money? I can't see why it would be impossible."

Enthusiasts generally don't get legal requirements or the business/marketing side of things. The fender mirror thing was actually the catalyst for this post. No, it's not illegal in the US, but OEMs can't for a multitude of reasons. And OMFG don't get me started on Travis Monte Carlo Guy's opinions of Cadillac.

yamahog > E. Julius 02/28/2015 at 18:53

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I've worked at OEMs, but deal with suppliers frequently.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 18:55

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On average, how much weight does modern safety equipment take up? Is it enough to justify the major blame game toward it, on making cars so much larger/heavier than their models of the past? Or is it just mainly that consumers want a practical, roomy automobile, that has all the creature comforts that a racecar doesn't have?

Sweet Trav > jariten1781 02/28/2015 at 18:57

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My company makes safety critical components for the industry. NHTSA certainly has the right to go after suppliers, and they have before.

yamahog > jariten1781 02/28/2015 at 18:57

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If Takata was working under an ED&D (engineering design and development) contract, which is pretty common, then they are responsible for the design and development of the parts/systems in question. Suppliers are also held responsible for various component-level tests, many of which are subcontracted out to test facilities with the means to perform the required tests. OEMs are responsible for vehicle-level testing.

I don't work on airbags and haven't been following the Takata case very closely, but I do have friends who work there, and they have been very busy.

yamahog > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 02/28/2015 at 19:03

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Much more airbags, crumple zones, structural integrity required to pass that brutal narrow offset test, etc etc.

And if you want to see how much room people want nowadays, just look at how popular SUVs and crossovers have become, even among younger buyers without children. To loosely quote a FP commenter the other day: "Can't they make big fat American cars for big fat American legs?"

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 19:05

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So basically, contrary to the FP belief, the vocal majority don't want a racecar.

jariten1781 > Sweet Trav 02/28/2015 at 19:06

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Interesting. Is the manufacturer also responsible for the functionality of the safety component? That sounds like a mess.

yamahog > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 02/28/2015 at 19:07

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Voice of the customer really is a fascinating thing.

E. Julius > Jonathan Harper 02/28/2015 at 19:08

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Not trying to steal Yamahog's thunder, but responding to her call for others who have worked in the industry to chime in. I've spent two years now interning in manufacturing/management at a tier I supplier, and something that I had a really difficult time conceiving before my direct experience was how incredibly difficult it is for the OEMs to control quality across the thousands of suppliers responsible for making the parts of a modern automobile.

The characteristics of the individual suppliers vary so much, creating any sort of quality policy that is strict enough to produce results but flexible enough to work at any supplier is a task of baffling complexity. Parts can be supplied by multibillion dollar businesses with global manufacturing operations and fully automated production, all the way down to million dollar companies with one building in the Detroit suburbs and a dozen people working at benches.

If you're the boss of quality of control for all of GM, how does your team create a policy that can be applied company wide and responds to the differing needs of the incredibly heterogeneous supplier pool? Or do you give great freedom to your subordinates, the people on the ground, and risk leaving too much responsibility in the hands of one individual and having another ignition scandal on your hands and/or creating the closed off management fiefdoms that practically killed the company in the 70s?

It's an extremely delicate balance to strike and a very difficult job. Obviously in specific cases like the ignition recall there were other mistakes at the management level that were made, but in general I don't think most of the population knows just how incredibly complicated these types of tasks are. I continually find myself amazed at just how well everything usually works on modern cars in light of that.

Sweet Trav > jariten1781 02/28/2015 at 19:08

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I'm fairly certain that both parties shoulder some level of liability in the event of failure. You should see the levels of liability insurance suppliers carry for safety critical parts.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 19:09

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Amazing how people who make things tend to favor the input from the people with money who will actually buy the product, over those who are never going to buy it. What a ridiculous bias!

XJDano > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 19:14

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Sorry, not really an industry ? As an aero one......

would side skirts improve aero for the metro?

I have added an air dam, and pool noodles to the grille for a time, but didn't realize I had a leaking coolant O-ring and would have to take them out when coolant got low & temps rose. Not the best time to experiment with aero. Well those are fixed and within the next 2 years I want 50 mpg.

Some people have added some kind on aero bit right before the rear wheel, I figured if I added 5" lawn edging like the front air damn along the whole side of the car instead of just in front of rear tire.

What sucks is it leaks from everywhere, seaps more like it, because it doesn't drop in the driveway. Also blow by which burns oil through the intake from pvc valve.

I'd also like to add a smooth underside & partial kammback, but side skirts seem the easiest right now.

Would it even help?

yamahog > XJDano 02/28/2015 at 19:22

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To some extent, yes. Most drag reduction methods really work best in conjunction with each other for the largest fuel economy benefit, by themselves the effect is too small to measure in MPG. I assume you're already keeping your RPM below 2000? That and fixing the blowby is probably a bigger help than any after-the-fact aero stuff.

XJDano > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 19:36

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I haven't fixed much yet, and sometime last year got a record 47 mpg with regular driving.

I still need it to pass inspection for bad cat, and clean out the EGR valve.

But since it is starting to rust on frame horns up from & rocker panels I figure I have 2 years when plates are due again.

Going to try to save up for two years for something else, but may be a mute point because I usually only have been driving the 7 miles to my warehouse and pick up a work truck.

I used to keep it at 60-65mph or less when gunning for mph, I think I'd get pushed off the road at 2000rpm. Which would be abou 45mph I think.

Your boy, BJR > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 19:44

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Why watch House of Cards if Lilyhammer is clearly the superior netflix show?

Funktheduck > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 19:48

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When can I get side cameras instead of big, noisy side mirrors?

yamahog > Your boy, BJR 02/28/2015 at 19:51

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Because the third season just dropped, duh.

yamahog > Funktheduck 02/28/2015 at 19:52

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As soon as the automotive lobbyists get their way.

E. Julius > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 19:54

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Speaking as someone whose best job prospects lie in the industry, would you recommend it to somebody just starting their career?

Funktheduck > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 19:57

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Are pop up headlights gone because of safety, aero, or no one likes them?

Sweet Trav > Funktheduck 02/28/2015 at 20:06

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I hate them and I hope they never come back.

Funktheduck > Sweet Trav 02/28/2015 at 20:07

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You've made a lot of people sad.

yamahog > E. Julius 02/28/2015 at 20:09

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Absolutely. If you'd told me back when I declared my aerospace major that the auto industry would be in better shape than aerospace, I would've laughed, but look where we are now. Not sure if you mean here or abroad, but the Big 3 have been hiring like crazy, most positions compensate very well (Chrysler is notorious for being the lowest of the bunch, naturally), and I have never been happier at work than I am now. There are lots of scholarships, internships, and co-ops available even before you graduate. I've learned so much since leaving California and I've found that my "outsider" insights have been particularly respected. I have a great mentor (set up before I even got there), an excellent managerial support system, I'm working on something awesome, and there are so many opportunities for development. For example, by the end of the year I will be leading my own project of my choosing. As I'm sure you know by now, living in Michigan is its own adventure, but I love it here. Not to mention an engineer's salary goes a long way with metro Detroit's relatively low cost of living.

yamahog > Funktheduck 02/28/2015 at 20:12

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Safety, namely ECE pedestrian safety requirements.

Sweet Trav > Funktheduck 02/28/2015 at 20:15

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Hidden Headlights are cool

Pop-up headlights looks stupid and ruin the lines of every car they are installed on.

E. Julius > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 20:22

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Thanks for the insight! I'd definitely be returning back to Michigan, and I really enjoy working for the company that I work for now. Like you said, I've had some awesome internships and great mentoring, but I was curious to see if that was sort of a fluke or if that had been other people's experience as well. From the perspective of a college student, sometimes it's hard to believe that great opportunities exist outside of computer programming and finance (or the East/West coast for that matter).

My only real worry is that I could be in for a bad time when the business cycle goes downward again, especially as I'm not an engineer. That being said, it seems that a lot of people in the industry know each other, so if you make a good impression on the right people they can open doors for you even if they themselves have nothing to offer you at that moment.

Sweet Trav > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 20:43

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Are you sure there isnt some other reason why you're happy? ;)

Leadbull > Sweet Trav 02/28/2015 at 21:44

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Yeah, Michigan hired Jim Harbaugh.

Leadbull > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 21:48

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So you built the Ford GT, then.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 21:49

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Can i haz GT 350 plz?

Also whats you opinion on Ford GT? IMO its fucking amazing and watch out Ferrari were coming for you again.

(Also i have no idea which OEM you work for, can you say or not?)

yamahog > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 02/28/2015 at 22:08

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Don't want to confirm which OEM, sorry.

I do really like this new GT but still wish my grandpa bought the last gen while he had the chance.

yamahog > Leadbull 02/28/2015 at 22:09

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Meh, at this point I'm not gonna get excited until someone puts up some wins.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 22:11

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Oh dang lol.

Ford Gt is one of my favorite cars of all time. Especially because the original was a big ole middle finger to Enzo

Leadbull > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 22:21

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Sorry about this , by the way.

King Ginger, not writing for Business Insider > yamahog 02/28/2015 at 22:43

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I should really do one of these from the business/customer/dealer network/marketing side (the part I work in) but, let's be honest, nobody wants to hear about the time spent making presentations and sitting in meetings seeing other peoples efforts at presentations :-)

yamahog > Leadbull 02/28/2015 at 23:18

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Meh, it's hockey season, and Red's still rolling.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > yamahog 03/01/2015 at 01:56

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From my perspective it seems like some engineers are absolute fuckwits, pardon my language. I mean so bad that a creative kindergartener who can add 2+2 would do a better job. And sometimes I come across something that makes me say "Wow! Whoever came up with this is an absolute genius!". Does it seem to you as though the gap is actually that big or do the poorly engineered things have more to do with number crunchers than lack of engineering ability? I know cost is a huge favor in all of this no matter what. And sorry, no examples of craptastic engineering, it's been long day.

If EVERY auto maker were sending head hunters after you trying to get you to go work for them, which would you choose? Feel free not to answer this, since it's more personal than about the industry directly.

yamahog > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 03/01/2015 at 09:10

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I assure you no one is actively trying to put out manure. Things happen when you have to balance cost, manufacturability, legal requirements, internal best practices, weight, serviceability, etc. Of those, the biggest one after legal is probably manufacturability. Everything that gets assembled at the plant needs to be put on in your 30-some second cycle time at each station, in order (can't get to x if y is already installed), with easy access to the parts in question, using preferred fasteners, parts have to error-proofed across different models/body styles, meeting ergo requirements, etc, and in no way a danger to the fine men and women who put together cars for a living. Sidenote: that's in no way sarcasm, I've worked with a lot of awesome and really knowledgeable people at every plant I've been to so far.

But anyway, to your question. In my humble opinion, the engineers at my current place of employee are absolutely capable and worth their salt, but this is not the case everywhere, and obviously not everyone can be a genius. Within our team specifically, we have a triple-check system on every change before it goes out to the other parties for approval: engineer, mentoring/lead engineer for your vehicle line, and our engineering manager. Before the actual change is written, engineers from multiple systems are involved to make sure everything will still work with their parts, and the program team manages the cost. At my current position, bad engineers are flat-out not hired or don't stick around long.

Now, in my previous job? They were taking anyone with a degree and a pulse, and that is part of the reason why I left. One of the first things I learned freshman year is that bad engineering kills people, and I have the utmost respect for that.

Hmmmm, OEMs. I think it would depend on the position, but I can tell you that I am extremely happy at the one I'm at and would probably never consider another position with the company I left. Nor Honda, they all have to wear uniforms. Weird. Though a motorcycle OEM would be cool... I am also kind of curious about how ze Germans and British do things, but not enough to leave the US long term :)

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > yamahog 03/01/2015 at 11:06

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I know there's a very complex balancing act going on and I completely respect that. I know engineering a vehicle is difficult and time consuming for a whole team of talented people. There's always cases of different companies having different standards, or bad management hiring inept people.

But I was thinking simpler things, things where clearly somebody just got lazy. The best example I can think of now is Ford? trucks circa 03-05ish (could be very wrong here). You go to change the oil and say "hey! There's this brilliant little tray/gutter thing to catch the oil that spills from the filter! Oh WTF! The oil doesn't even come close to hitting that stupid little thing and now it's all over EVERYTHING!"

Obviously I'm not an engineer, but I've worked for/on a number of makes. Interestingly, and very surprisingly, I've found that I'm treated more like a person by ze Germans than by my fellow 'muricans. There are more perks, better factory support, and better labor times, and in Mercedes case better serviceability. Though BMW is quite a bit tighter with times than Mercedes. A lot of this comes down to management at each dealer and money. But us little guys are people too, some makes just don't care who they step on.

I'm glad you've found a company and position that treat you well and make you happy, that can be a very difficult thing to do. Sorry if I come across as bitter or jaded, I'm not trying to. And I really appreciate the response.

thebigbossyboss > yamahog 03/03/2015 at 15:37

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Two questions: 1) Describe if you could briefly how much auto parts sharing goes on between competitors. For example I always thought Honda made honda airbags and so forth, but no, it seems Takada makes everyone's airbags. Which other components are likely candidates to be shared across various makes and models?

2) If there was no bailout would there still be an auto industry in the USA? I realize you are not all knowing, but give it a best guess? ;)

yamahog > thebigbossyboss 03/03/2015 at 16:26

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It's not necessarily that the components themselves are shared, but they're contracted out and produced by one of a few large, experienced suppliers for a given type of part. For example, it'd be hard to find a car assembled in North America without any parts made by Magna. The OEM stamps the body panels, assembles the powertrain and some chassis stuff in-house, and then it's a matter of logistics and putting together all the rest of the supplied parts and sub-assemblies (fascias, lighting, electronics, interiors, etc) at the plant.

And if GM and Chrysler had gone bankrupt? Assuming no other OEMs swooped in to scavenge the assets (looking at you, Fiat), Ford could still be around depending on how many suppliers folded and Tesla (they're still American, I guess) would probably have more room to grow with less opposition.

thebigbossyboss > yamahog 03/04/2015 at 07:30

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Good points, I had forgotten about Tesla. (Don't see very many in Canada).

Thank you for your answers!!